Engineers 2.1 Beta - findings so far

[Walter]

I found a video by someone (not me) where you can see pretty much what the NPC AI is like now. Somehow the NPCs all manage to stay out of the firing line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvH7vPZULc4

I'm not surprised at the results here. The Vulture is one of the most agile ships in the set, which is why it's so good in a CZ, contrary to expectation. If you're in a Vulture on the tail of any other ship in the current release you can stay there and not be shaken off. I've taken down ships up to the size of a Cutter in one. This makes hunting AI Vultures completely unconvincing in the current build: very few ships indeed should be able to keep behind one and stay there.

Happy to meet anyone for a game of Chase the Exhaust to prove me right or wrong.

[Phillipus]

Not only Vultures are this nimble. Pythons too.

[Loriath]

We had a long conversation on TS last night about the new AI fights.

My take on it is that we have had it way to easy for way to long. I know it may not be a popular idea considering the curve of the AI's ability has changed a lot in the Beta, but to be honest, my rank of Competent (and Master that I was before I cleared my save) is not due to skill but quantity. I am not a great pilot. I have a lot to learn and if they release the AI like it is now, I am resigned from the fact that I will become quite familiar with the Rebuy Screen.


Fact: There is no way that I alone in an A-Rated DB Scout should be able to come out with no hull damage against a wing of three Vipers that are all rated Dangerous. I should not be able to solo Elite Anacondas all day long and not get killed even once. That is the current state of the AI. I can run when I need to, and should never die. I may not win every fight, but I should never be killed unless I am foolish.

Fact: As a trader, I should not be able to run from every interdiction with a Boost Boost Jump tactic with no damage when I am interdicted by a Master or Higher AI in a decent ship (not those annoying sidewinder or Eagles). The most I ever ran for defences in a trader was Chaff when I was in a Runner (T series ships). I should have to work more. It will not kill trading, it will make trading more realistic. It should never have been a "Free Money Printing Machine" as it has been in the past. Really, unless you are in a T9/T7 (or running with no shields which if you do means you are too greedy and if you complain about it with no shields, I have no remorse for you) You are going to have to look at defenses.

How many trade ships have you lost from NPC pirates? Not many in my experience. 4 pips to engines, 2 to shields, boost boost jump (high wake) can get you out of almost every interdiction 99.5% of the time.

Fact: The only PF Rank that you can get without being involved in combat, either offensively or defensively, is Exploring. And now, there will not be the choice of running unshielded explorers because getting out of the bubble may get you killed. Sandros and Michael have both stated that explorers should not be going out unarmed in the future.

Fact: We cannot choose to not use engineers. This is not like Power Play where it won't affect you in you don't bother with it. When a wing of 3 Elite sidewinders interdicts you, hit you with a mass lock torpedo so you can't just charge and jump when things go egg shaped, and then their small weapons are chewing you up because they can bypass normal shields, or are causing massive module damage/malfunctions, you will be heading to the engineers to keep it from happening next time. We will not have a choice. We will have to gather materials for them, we will have to play the arms race.

Fact: Even if we escalate the arms race with the engineers to compete in weapons/mods, Our ship choices are going to change. No Matter how much you mod your ship that you only fly on weekends, you better learn to really handle that ship. Otherwise you are in a heap of trouble. Every ship has strengths and weaknesses. An Eagle is a monster that can stick to any other ship, but it is made of spit and paper. Even modded, you will need to re-learn how to handle it. Never dealt with FA off much? Might have to learn it to avoid getting your Eagle shredded.
Do you have a Multi Role Ship that you use because its ok to do all the things you like? Better learn to fly it like an ace. You may find yourself choosing multiple ships for each role instead of Multiple Role Ships.

Fact: If your combat rank is high, you will attract attention from higher ranked NPC's. Are you deadly? Chances are the NPC's that come at you will be a lot closer to your rank. Are you ready? I think the days of a Harmless Eagle interdicting Two Master level Anacondas in a wing are going away.

We have had it easy. I hate to say that people that have gotten High Rank Combat levels are not good pilots, but we get the rank via Quantity.
We have some ships that are (currently) almost a "I Win" button. I am thinking Vulture, FDL, FAS, etc.. These are fantastic ships. But to be honest, even as good as I currently am and as comfortable I am in a certain ships, when I look at people like Kharma who has been in his Asp for so long that his arse has taken root in the pilots seat, he knows it inside and out I would seriously think twice before taking him on One on One. So if that is the case, and the AI is going to have that sort of skill and ability, I need to up my game.I am excited to see exactly how this affects me. I have already made plans for this.

If you are currently Elite, and have been here for a while, consider this: In Identical ships, Would you put YOUR skills up against a player that has come up from Zero to Elite with the coming AI in place? Personally, I wouldn't stand a chance.

As I often Sing and quote on TS "We have a long way to go, and a short time to get there" but I am looking forward to it.
Too Easy for Too Long.

Elite is finally getting Dangerous.

[Walter]

Couldn't agree more (especially over Kharma's nether regions). I know my Elite status was down to lots and lots of sidewinder cannon fodder. The new AI came as a bit of a shock, but I'll learn new skills.

[Walter]

Not only Vultures are this nimble. Pythons too.

Really have to disagree here. I own both and occasionally take the Python into a CZ just to remind me how good the Vulture is to fly.

But all this may be academic - see Loriath's post.

[Xebeth]

<snip>

Too Easy for Too Long.

Elite is finally getting Dangerous.

I agree, nearly 13,000 kills and I can't remember the last one that was even remotely difficult, HazRES farming is actually a relaxing experience and frankly that can't be right.

Someone at work who's only played a few months was describing the thrill of taking down their first Anaconda after a long battle, I haven't had that for so long.

I learnt to kill in the first place, I'll learn to kill again.

[Xebeth]

Not only Vultures are this nimble. Pythons too.

Really have to disagree here. I own both and occasionally take the Python into a CZ just to remind me how good the Vulture is to fly.

But all this may be academic - see Loriath's post.

I think he meant AI Pythons are as nimble as AI Vultures

[charlie2alpha]

I agree and disagree actually. Yes, everyone of us who got Elite got it because of quantity. Yes, we had it easy. But changing the AI so dramatically it's almost like playing another game entirely suddenly. I understand why they are doing it, but along the way, some us will lose patience. I do not have only Elite to fill my free time, and if all those changes mean it would take me years to reach Elite status, I never would even bother, I am sorry to say. And I hope FD realizes that it will lose some players/potential future expansion buyers if the game becomes too annoying to play. Because for me, this still a game above all, and when I stop having fun with it I will seek it elsewhere.

Honestly, If I was to start from zero with all those changes, I wouldn't. I probably would have given up after a month. It all about effort and returns, if the returns are too slow we're start seeing player frustration. And then lost players. lost revenue for FD. I understand that some may prefer more realism, more challenge. I belong to those who prefer something easier. For example, I know that I will NEVER EVER master FA off. Best I can do, use it to turn a little faster. Anything else, I lose control. If that is now a required skill, I'm out. If I wanted a 100% realistic simulation I would have tried to join the airforce instead of playing games.

[Walter]

Not only Vultures are this nimble. Pythons too.

Really have to disagree here. I own both and occasionally take the Python into a CZ just to remind me how good the Vulture is to fly.

But all this may be academic - see Loriath's post.

I think he meant AI Pythons are as nimble as AI Vultures

At risk of being the grumpy old man here, I'll still disagree: it's a lot easier to take down a Python than a jinking Vulture (which is often a much more interesting prospect).

Still happy for someone to prove me wrong.

[Phillipus]

I was talking about NPCS. Put it this way - all NPCs are nimbler/slipperier/harder/whatever in 2.1 beta.